tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8095807065479059898.post8847738252269625199..comments2023-06-21T00:36:40.840-07:00Comments on Plead Ignorance: Slapped by the "Invisible Hand"Robert the Skeptichttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10863488312604865183noreply@blogger.comBlogger17125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8095807065479059898.post-34010258850385955562011-09-08T20:55:28.413-07:002011-09-08T20:55:28.413-07:00I followed you back to your site from wherever I w...I followed you back to your site from wherever I was when I clicked a link and ended up here. <br /><br />Now that I cleared that up, this has always especially annoyed me: <br /><br /><i>Replace government welfare with private charity.</i><br /><br />It annoys me because they know this won't solve the problems entitlements solve. They are lying when they imply that it will, and its one of their main talking points. <br /><br />When you find them intentionally promoting solutions they know will not solve the problem, it discredits there whole philosophy. It also proves that they are content to live with the problem or that they do not see it as a problem. <br /><br />Embracing a corrupt deceitful ideology is much worse than embracing a bad ideology. <br /><br />In my opinion, libertarians who promote this are just scumbags.John Mystehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16263634313238599515noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8095807065479059898.post-42118289301322133512010-08-09T20:38:12.678-07:002010-08-09T20:38:12.678-07:00SecretAgent The more I think about it, the more co...<b>SecretAgent</b> The more I think about it, the more convinced I am that a single-payer not-for-profit health care system is the best way to go. As Dr. Mom alludes, there would need to be some type of cap on medical malpractice claims; the premiums they must pay are outlandish.<br /><br />The sad aspect of our political system is that we often have to pick from a two-size-fits-all set of limited choices. There are aspects of the Republican party I could support (not many, but some) and even the Libertarians have some valid points.<br /><br />In the end we really make choices about the representation we believe we will get in our political process; the man or woman who we believe will speak for us. Occasionally we get lucky and get it right... but only occasionally.Robert the Skeptichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10863488312604865183noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8095807065479059898.post-49357816993801424392010-08-09T14:44:09.717-07:002010-08-09T14:44:09.717-07:00That very linited "test" pegged me as a ...That very linited "test" pegged me as a centrist, while I consider myself very much a liberal. I think what they may have been coding was my belief that your "freedom" ends when it imposes on me. So censorship of books and speech? No. But should anybody be allowed to put anything where I have to see it (eg., porn?) I say no. So that question got a maybe from me.<br /><br />And I am a personal victim of the privatization of access to health care, leaving me and my children unable to get decent coverage. Last year, in addition to my very high insurance premiums, I paid $7000 out of my own pocket for a needed surgery. And I am, if anything, an underutilizer of medical care as well as committed to maintaining a healthy lifestyle. This is one healthcare provider who is all for nationalized healthcare. And it would be patently absurd to have all social assistance rely on the limited charity of our citizens. In general, if people are not required to help others, through taxes, most will not. So, Libertarian, not me.secret agent womanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03763879283931347382noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8095807065479059898.post-59122141479681998412010-08-09T07:56:10.719-07:002010-08-09T07:56:10.719-07:00Marylinn There are those who would say that even t...<b>Marylinn</b> There are those who would say that even these basic rights should be "earned". One of the huge areas of contention when talking about medical reform in this country was the question of "is there a right to health care". Many argued no. The selfishness of the individual here bothers me quite a bit. Do people not see that there is benefit to them personally by providing benefit to society as a whole? Apparently not.<br /><br /><b>Rain</b> Exactly. The Libertarian position is too extreme for me, at least regarding social issues.<br /><br /><b>Bananas</b> No they are not against law enforcement; quite the contrary, they want THEIR property and possession protected. But they would decriminalize crimes such as prostitution and drug use. On those I am in agreement.<br /><br /><b>Mary</b> The road to hell is paved with good intentions, it's said. If I imagine the country as a group of unsupervised teen-agers, it is easier for me to understand the need for rules and regulations. Left to our own devices people tend to gravitate to the lowest common denominator. As I say, the Libertarian perspective suffers from naivety.Robert the Skeptichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10863488312604865183noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8095807065479059898.post-16949755983690599492010-08-09T04:16:34.050-07:002010-08-09T04:16:34.050-07:00I was pretty sure I was going to be a liberal too,...I was pretty sure I was going to be a liberal too, but I took the test anyway. It's nice to have reached predictable middle age. <br /><br />The Libertarians seem to have all sorts of good intentions, but they obviously trust too much in the inherent goodness of humanity. Some of us, sadly, are just greedy shits.Mary Witzlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06458299046574564155noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8095807065479059898.post-5269892344339378892010-08-09T02:11:45.708-07:002010-08-09T02:11:45.708-07:00I have heard some libertarians are even opposed to...I have heard some libertarians are even opposed to a police force. This is very silly! Any country has a minority of evildoers to whom a firm spanking must be delivered by the iron hand of justice. There's no point having money and social security if some contemptible thief can deprive you of it.Gorilla Bananashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13044093013423635830noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8095807065479059898.post-17365033181337957502010-08-08T10:41:48.714-07:002010-08-08T10:41:48.714-07:00I took the test and came out further into the libe...I took the test and came out further into the liberal side than I would have expected although I knew I leaned liberal. I am realistic about the needs of some kind of power to balance things and hence cannot really buy into libertarianism although I am sympathetic to the idea of minding one's own business unless the activity of someone else is harmful to others.Rain Trueaxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07994628226501093880noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8095807065479059898.post-50870435271403987462010-08-08T10:39:05.166-07:002010-08-08T10:39:05.166-07:00It may have been Jefferson who said, The purpose o...It may have been Jefferson who said, The purpose of government is to make people's lives better. Without taking the test, I know I would be found liberal. All people, which really comes to mean, in my interpretation, the ones with the least...especially those without bootstraps...have been promised certain things which our country no long seems to value or honor. I have a strict definition of what makes a country great (something which we always seem to say about America) which requires all to be fed, housed, educated, have access to health care and be treated with dignity. If we have not addressed those things first, how can we call ourselves great?Marylinn Kellyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02759437467691163658noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8095807065479059898.post-16061575162845951402010-08-08T08:05:32.357-07:002010-08-08T08:05:32.357-07:00Kay Yogi certainly knew how to turn a phrase... ev...<b>Kay</b> Yogi certainly knew how to turn a phrase... even if he bent it a little.<br /><br /><b>Dr. Mom</b> I'm not saying we should adopt the European system but we can certainly adopt the best aspects of it. I kind of like their citizens not going bankrupt due to medical bills; here it's the second highest cause of bankruptcy. <br /><br />I like the idea of assembling a task force (sans politicians) to hammer out a plan. Though I feel the private insurers will always have a conflict of interest between profits and service deliver.<br /><br />Yes, being an optimist and a skeptic "can" be contradictory. To me it is depressing sometimes to deal with the stark "realities" of some situations. But the alternative is to cling to cling to secure-feeling myths as so many do. I can't.Robert the Skeptichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10863488312604865183noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8095807065479059898.post-16031917325065713022010-08-08T05:47:41.354-07:002010-08-08T05:47:41.354-07:00Is the European health care system better than wha...Is the European health care system better than what we have? In some ways. Not all. Not the best possible, either.<br /><br />I have this dream. It's where we get a bunch of economists and a bunch of doctors and a bunch of public health specialists in a room, lock them in, and let them come up with a workable, useful, excellent plan. No politicians allowed.<br /><br />I don't know exactly what it would look like, but it would absolutely have to address three elements that so far have not been included in the US debate:<br /><br />End of life care<br />Malpractice abuse<br />Insulation of the patient from responsibility for his/her own health<br /><br />I know it's just a dream. But I'm an optimist, even if I am a skeptic. Is that too much of a contradiction?The Motherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15157821003454766570noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8095807065479059898.post-82204280969875772952010-08-07T23:35:55.183-07:002010-08-07T23:35:55.183-07:00You have said it well.
While I've flirted a...You have said it well. <br /><br />While I've flirted a tad with Libertarian but I think they are naive. <br /><br />Love the Yogi Berea quote.Kay Dennisonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02646717192332313215noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8095807065479059898.post-16475041452841461492010-08-07T13:39:50.581-07:002010-08-07T13:39:50.581-07:00I am right in your thinking footsteps. I do agree ...I am right in your thinking footsteps. I do agree with their attitude on personal freedom but sometimes they run to the extreme regarding government limitations. The idea of lesser government dovetails so neatly with personal freedom, but when it is explained the notion crumbles. You helped explain it.Jerryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04278403041887060649noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8095807065479059898.post-4750869234256729312010-08-07T11:16:48.155-07:002010-08-07T11:16:48.155-07:00Penny Your comment about Libertarians not having a...<b>Penny</b> Your comment about Libertarians not having any contact with truly "needy" people is quite relevant. I had my own stereotypical opinions about the poorer classes; my vision was rudely awakened when my career changed and I actually had daily contact with them.<br /><br />I often refer to the phrase often touted of expecting people to pull themselves up by their own bootstraps - except many don't have bootstraps. This Free Market idea is a wonderful concept, but to many this market is not available to them. A market has to be open to all to participate fairly. <br /><br /><b>Dr. Mom</b> You would be more well versed in the medical delivery system than I. Still, my premiums go up 13 to 15% each year to where I now pay $1,200 for medical insurance. That is just the premium, add on copays and deductibles. It is the LARGEST draw on my income bar none. <br /><br />Whatever you say about government-managed health care, it's simple math: if medical insurance is a profit-making enterprise, it is going to cost more. The motive will be to increase profits, at the expense of delivering (costly) service. That simple. The European system is not perfect, but it is better than what we have now, in my opinion. <br /><br /><b>TechnoBabe</b> This is the dark side of the "Faith Based Initiatives" started by GW Bush. I have already seen people denied services because they were deemed not "sufficiently moral" in the eyes of these (supposed) charities. Government must serve everyone in need, not pick and choose. <br /><br /><b>BackRow</b> I think the cat in the cartoon makes the point. Indeed I have <a href="http://pleadignorance.blogspot.com/2010/05/undeserving.html" rel="nofollow">blogged about this attitude</a> people have about the apparent "deservedness" of one over another. <br /><br />Many well off people believe they got there by their own hard work, when in reality other outside factors helped them along, often fortunate circumstances which they had no control over (luck). <br /><br />I will make a stereotypical statement here: I have yet to meet a POOR Libertarian.Robert the Skeptichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10863488312604865183noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8095807065479059898.post-46089770884239713032010-08-07T09:15:58.538-07:002010-08-07T09:15:58.538-07:00My brother-in-law professes to be Libertarian. I t...My brother-in-law professes to be Libertarian. I think that this is in direct response to the "I've got mine, you go get yours" mantra. In fact, the thinking actally includes includes an addendum that "Because I've got mine, and you don't have as much, I am a better person, and you don't deserve as much". Libertarian theory requires someone to have a lot, and others to always have much less, even less than required to meet basic needs. <br />Unacceptable to me.<br /><br />alwaysinthebackrowAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8095807065479059898.post-52291010835562978652010-08-07T07:09:25.005-07:002010-08-07T07:09:25.005-07:00While in the shelter I filled out many application...While in the shelter I filled out many applications for housing. Various organizations sponsored just as many various programs. Several were asking questions in the application if I would be willing to attend mandatory church meetings twice a week. That was a surprise to me. I happen to be in agreement with your paragraph of "I got mine, you go get yours".CiCihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08615265608675467505noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8095807065479059898.post-5534286640224101512010-08-07T06:54:50.094-07:002010-08-07T06:54:50.094-07:00Libertarian. Sorry.
Certainly I disagree on the i...Libertarian. Sorry.<br /><br />Certainly I disagree on the issue of the charitable process--there are folks in serious need of help. I don't see why the 'party line' can't be adjusted. <br /><br />But as a doc, I detest the government intervention in health care. The whole third party system is a mess, yes, but the govt way of doing things just makes it worse. As medicare goes, so go the insurers. There has to be a better way.<br /><br />There is no party line that's perfect. They all have massive faults and weaknesses, largely because there are no perfect situations to attach political stances to. The world isn't black and white; it's full of shades of grey. <br /><br />Which is why I tend to vote for the PERSON, not the party. Give me a principled politician who can make the proper decisions in a pinch (PLEASE???), rather than a long list of party platforms that don't bend to the situation.The Motherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15157821003454766570noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8095807065479059898.post-21699221444157959642010-08-07T04:22:08.236-07:002010-08-07T04:22:08.236-07:00This is a well-written essay.
I took the test lin...This is a well-written essay. <br />I took the test linked to, and 'discovered' I am Liberal. Never would've guessed ;)<br /><br />As you say, their views on personal freedoms may be right on, but their views on economics are questionable. <br /><br />And Libertarians, sadly, don't seem to have ever met any actual needy people.<br /><br />Our "Green Party" here are libertarians. In the last election, in 2007, they got about 7.9% of the vote. I don't see that percentage changing, frankly.(The next national elections are this month, on August 20.)Pennyhttp://penjandrum.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.com